Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 36

Thread: Ramblings.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    January 2005
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    1,277

    Default Ramblings.

    Warning: LONG!, not proofread and formatting slightly screwed after copy+paste from .txt

    Not sure exactly where to start or what the point is, but I've had a whole lot of things on my mind lately (well, for a long time), and thought it was about time to get it all out, so to speak - partially to explain my (latest) freakout, I guess.

    Guess I'll start with the beginning. Back before and during WoW beta, RL was a bit in decline. Not due to internal problems or anything, just a lot of people starting to get a bit bored of the game after playing it for so long, and many others getting fed up with the introduction of Core Combat, flight Variant BFRs and all those other lovely things that screwed over our otherwise great game ... and WoW beta secuding a lot of people didn't help either. I think that already there, some of the hardcore FPSers grew a bit of a disliking to WoW, seeing how it further reduced the number of Legionaires online every evening.
    As far as I recall, there wasn't really any problems with or in WoW beta. We ended up on some different servers, but that was mainly just because people got their beta keys at different points in time, and many didn't get in 'till the open beta - by which time those playing closed didn't see much point in scrapping their characters to join the rest just for a month or so.
    It started getting ugly when retail Wow was on the doorstep. PvE/PvP discussions, horde/alliance discussions, me and Jojo's ... ehrm ... "differences" - overall an amazing lot of negativity before the game even launched. I guess a lot of it carried over when we started up in retail, divided on two servers - PvE with a heavy majority, mainly because more people were going there, and those who couldn't decide just joined where they could get to play with the most Renegades.

    Other then an occasional minor squabble between PvP / PvE, I don't really remember us having any problems 'till people started hitting level 60 and running into that lovely, lovely thing that is the Wow "endgame". The difference between the level 1-59 game and the level 60 game is remarkable.
    While you're still levelling up, you can achieve things on your own and in short sessions. You can log on for half an hour, get a quest out of the way, log off and feel that you got something done. From 1 -> 59, Blizzard managed to do what they said they wanted to do: make a casual friendly MMORPG. Possible to play and progress in short sessions, possible to play and progress solo or in small groups - overall, very accessible and with few or no limitations. Heck, even with the "rested bonus" to xp, to allow those with less time to play to catch up some with those gaming all day long.
    The only exception to this was the instances - more or less requiring a balanced 5-man group and a longer session ... and even then, that wasn't that big of a deal, since it was something that could be arranged in evenings and on weekends. Personally I played loads and played the class everybody always needed for their groups, so I got all the instances done - but I know many others skipped a lot of instances on the way, simply outlevelled them, and it wasn't really a problem as such - the instances did offer some nice rewards and all, but while levelling up everything gets replaced pretty quick anyway so missing out isn't that big a deal. There was plenty of other content available for people to explore.

    But then we get to the game at 60. Well ... the thing about MMORPGs, is that half the fun is character progression. It's creating this little level 1 dude
    with his rusty short sword, broken buckler and dirty tshirt, then playing for hours and hours with this character, watching it grow and become more powerful along the way - maxing out ones skills and stats, getting better gear and so on (ok, that came out incredibly tamagotchi-like. Ew). All in all, a whole lot of the fun comes from improving your character. Just think about it - what are the great moments ingame? It's levelling up (ding! grats!), it's getting better gear, it's completing quests, it's improving your tradeskills, it's getting higher rep with factions, clearing up your quest log (eh Iron? , getting richer ... all those things. And pretty much everything you do ingame - it either improves your character, or it improves someone else's. Doing quests, going grinding, farming instances, powering mates through instances - all of it.

    ... and, that's where we ran into problems with the endgame. At first, just after hitting 60, there's still some quests to get out of the way, maybe still
    some areas to explore, some schematics to get and such - but soon enough, you run out of things to do or ways to improve your character that doesn't take place in instances (well, other then grinding for gold or rep, which I think we can all agree is not particularly entertaining). At some point, the only way
    you can really improve your character is by running "tier 0 instances" - Scholo/LBRS/UBRS/Stratholme/Dire Maul over and over again. And already there, that posed a problem for some. Instead of being able to log in for half an hour and get something done alone, you suddenly had to have a session of at least a few hours - and you had to find 5, 10 or even 15 people to get things done. And heck, not just any 5, 10 or 15 - but a decent class setup as well. I remember speaking to Iron about it at some point, when he mentioned he had half a billion arcane crystals in the bank. Think he said something like "When I log in you're all already halfway through some instances, so I don't have much to do but go mining crystals I don't really need".
    It was already at that point that some people either started over on alts, swapped over to PvP for something new or just quit the game.

    That was bad enough ... and then we got to the point where people started being done with tier 0. Some of us had everything we could possibly use from all the tier 0 instances, after running them over and over again. And we were still running them over and over with other guildies, to help them get their sets and their blue gear. We were basically getting to the point where we were not only out of content to do alone, but also running out of content that could be done in 5-, 10- or 15-man raids. There was nothing new to see, nothing new to do, no instance we hadn't done a dozen times, no instance we hadn't rushed people through a dozen times ... other then actual raid content. Lord Kazzak, Azuregos, Onyxia and Molten Core.
    We continued like that for a while. With people getting up to that stage - many of them then quitting of boredom, moving to PvP (Jassi and Gotryk f.x. moved before all the fuss started iirc), levelling up alts - and some even quitting to join other guilds that were doing raid content. It was back then that the officers team at the time decided to do something about it, rather then being stuck with the status quo - we decided that we wanted to start raiding, and that we should start working on getting people to gear themselves up and getting their attunement and key quests done.

    In order to get something done in these raids you need:
    - 40 players. FORTY. Sure, once you know a boss well and you're overequipped and all that you can start cutting down on numbers, but when you're working on beating bosses the first few times, you need everything you can get - and that's 40 players. Heck, right now with the current PvE guild - we've killed Vaelestraz 5 times, yet I'm still pretty damn certain there's no way we can do it with less then 38 players.
    Back then, at that point in time, we didn't have enough players ready to raid, and we didn't see waiting for more to hit 60 as a viable course of action.

    We'd been doing that for long enough already, and whenever we got a new level 60 up, geared and ready, another one had quit/left/etc out of boredom.
    While giving problems if you don't have enough players (so you can't get stuff done), it also gives problems if you have too many. If there's 45, that means
    you've got 5 that can't get to go.

    - A decent class setup. You need enough tanks to keep the mobs occupied, you need enough healers to keep people up, you need enough dispellers to keep debuffs off people and you need enough DPS to kill stuff before the healers go OOM - or before the boss does whatever nasty thing he does after X minutes.
    General rules of thumb: 5 of each class.
    Back then, we had something like 2 priests, 1 druid, a gazillion paladins and all the hunters in the world.

    To meet these two requirements, we started the Alliance with The Scorned and recruited more level 60 players.

    - Proper gear, proper specs. It's pretty self-explanatory that the more armor, life and defense your tank has, the more mana your healers have and the more damage your DDers can do, the better your raid will perform and the higher your chances of succes will be.

    We started scheduling tier 0 raids to get people geared up and we introduced DKP.

    - A long session. It plain and simply takes a long time from one starts inviting these 40 players, setting up the groups and all that 'till the raid is over.

    For a lot of people, too long sessions - especially because they obviously had to start at a time where most people could attend which didn't work out for everyone.

    Much of it created a lot of fuss - the recruitment and in particular DKP. Looking back, I don't really want to think about how many long term members and friends moved to PvP or quit at that point or how many hours we spent argueing forth and back in that damn officer's channel on TS. There wasn't a whole lot of fun about any of it at that point ... in the end I guess we ended up with the goal we'd aimed for. We had a big enough raiding force. We had people with keys and people attuned. We had people in good enough gear and with proper specs. We ventured into Molten Core, and came back out victorious on the first night - Lucifron down.

    From that point on and forth ... well, it's been the same god damn circus. We started running into new and old problems along the way. DKP has been up again and again. Just have a look at how many threads we've had argueing over this or that detail. To the outsider I guess it looks stupid; why aren't we
    abolishing it since it gives us so many problems? sad fact is, it's a neccesary evil. Looking at the raiding guilds on our server (Inner Sanctum, Sin, Element, Random, Winter's Heart, Purple Shadows, Havana Room, Raging Vikings just to name a few), I only know of one who didn't implement DKP - and the guild
    broke down over loot issues, heh. Have a look at Bloodscalp. DKP was among the reasons why a lot of people left Silvermoon to start up on Bloodscalp - and look now, they've implemented DKP as well over there. Fact is, however popular it is to say the opposite; loot matters. The first time you go in with a raid to kill a boss, nobody gives a damn about the loot. It's wiping a number of times to finally triumph, take it down and have 40 people screaming "HELL YEAH!" on TS (I *so* wish I'd recorded TS on our first Ragnaros and Vaelestraz kills). The second time it's about proving you didn't just get lucky on the first kill. Third time you finally set in stone that you've got the boss on farming status. But after that, it's just that. Farming status. It's about loot. It's about finally getting something that improves people's characters after they've been stuck with the same tier 0 stuff for so long, it's about getting
    something for showing up and fighting through the same dungeon and killing the same boss(es) yet again - and that's where simply rolling dice for the stuff doesn't cut it. If people can just roll, a lot of people are going to roll first, think second. You end up with people getting something they didn't really want that much, while someone who really wanted it misses out. If people have to bid hard earned points, they stop to think. "It this worth it?" ... and so on.

    On that topic, there's the next lovely restriction: instance timers.
    When a raid heads into say Molten Core and kills the first boss, the raid gets "locked" to that instance for 6 days. That means all 40 players in that raid and anyone who joins in later on gets locked to that one copy of the instance, and will not be able to enter a new copy of it for a full 6 days. So once a boss is killed, that's it - you can't get to do it again 'till in 6 days. This creates a few problems - one is that it's part of what can make the loot such
    a big deal. If you miss out, there's at least another 6 days 'till you get another chance. Then there's that number 40 again. Either your guild has:
    - Exactly 40 members who attend 95%+ of raids
    - Few enough players to never have too many, but constantly have problems getting enough to raid in the first place.
    - More then enough people, meaning full raids but also always people missing out on the run.
    We've along the line opted for the 3rd option, in order to be able to raid loads - which means we've also had to deal with people getting disappointed with missing runs (especially when it was several runs in a row). Looking at the Bloodscalp alliance - as far as I can see, there's 3 guilds. They're already now having a few too many show up for most raids, and there's been the first few posts with people being more or less unsatisfied about it. As far as I know all three guilds are still recruiting, as far as I know all three guilds have members below level 60 that are going to want to join once they do hit 60. At some point there's going to be a way too big pool of level 60 players wanting to join, and that's something they'll have to deal with.
    It gives another problem with the whole "Renegades are welcome in any section of Renegade Legion"-thing. I definitely agree with the principle but ... well, we're and endgame focused guild. We're all level 60, we're all raiding, we really don't have a lot to offer to someone starting from scratch. As for
    Bloodscalp players who have level 60 characters on Silvermoon as well ... well, however much I'd like to drag Iron along to say the next Vael kill, that
    means I'd have to tell one of the everyday Silvermoon players that he ain't going :/ (on that note, I don't think there'd be too much trouble in getting a
    few of you guys in on the next Ragnaros kill so you can get to see it first hand before you're going for it on Bloodscalp).

    So ... loot/DKP, raid spots, requirements to join raids/guild, recruitment, personal disputes ... there's been plenty of things to disagree on and argue
    about for a very long time now. Ever since a bunch of us hit level 60 and all the way up to now, really. Then on top of that, you can add the tension between Silvermoon and Bloodscalp. We didn't start off on the best terms, and a lot of dissatisfied people leaving Silvermoon and joining Bloodscalp didn't help things much.

    So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that the WoW endgame is very different from the early game, and there's a lot of limits and restrictions - mainly the
    number 40, the difficulty of the instances and what's required to beat them (decent raid setup, coordination, teamspeak, long sessions, proper gear, proper specs) and the lockout timers. When we implmented DKP and all these other things and changes along the way, it was because we believed that the focus of the Legion was to be the best, that we were here to beat everything there was to beat, and that being more and more "hardcore" about it all (with higher and higher requirements along the way) was the way to reach that goal.

    So, that's partially why I blew up when I read this post and the replies on that thread:
    http://forums.renegade-legion.org/showthread.php?t=2649
    I know it was posted in jest, but it demonstrates both quite obvious disapproval with what we were doing and on Fluf's part also a lack of knowledge about the limitations of the WoW endgame and what he was actually talking about. A bunch of replies ridiculing the Silvermoon officer's team and someone saying "WoW = worst thing that ever happened to the legion" didn't exactly make it a whole lot more fun to me. Then add up recent tensions between Silvermoon and Bloodscalp people ... well :/

    The other part ... well, trying to run the Silvermoon guild hasn't exactly been a whole lot of fun. Just ask Iron how many hours we spent on argueing things
    just before he left, and how the general morale was at the time. I wish I could say that all our changes, all our nazi rules, all the swaps in leadership and all that mumbo-jumbo has helped. But it hasn't. We've gone from arguement to arguement and dispute to dispute. Once one thing has been solved, the next two problems have popped up. We've had constant disputes amongst members ... and, well. The list goes on. I can't say I've enjoyed any of this "officers" business at all. Through all of that, I wish I could say that "Hey, at least we got where we wanted to be". But I can't, really. Ok, so we've got Molten Core on farming status and are doing progress in Blackwing Lair, but it hasn't been the victory it should have been - not to me anyways. Along the line, we've scared off too many of the people who should've been here with us, we've had too many disputes, I've spent too many hours argueing with people, I've spent too many days in a bad mood over something game-related, I've been snapping too much at members ingame simply because I was sick of trying to sort problems, I've been ignoring too many valid complaints for the same reason ... and as you've probably noticed I've gone beserk too many times.

    So well, Fluf - I guess your post pissed me the hell off mainly because I've been putting so much time, and so much effort into this game and this guild only to fail so tremendously, and that post kinda' ... well I don't think it was meant to, but it hit. And it hurt, big time.

    Heh. Just look at how much whiny rambling I've just typed out, over a bloody videogame. Pathetic, isn't it?
    I'm not entirely certain where to go from here. I've demonstrated well enough that me leading anything doesn't help anyone, yet I don't want to let the
    Silvermoon guild down - especially not the rest of the officers, and our long time, dedicated players. Though at the same time I've had enough of bickering, disputes, "policymaking" and all that - not placing the blame on anyone, just saying that the endgame has a lot of elements that easily creates disputes, and I wish I could say I was the one who would handle them all, but I ain't. I guess I just ought to delete my characters, cancel the account, break the discs and go get laid or something but well ... rofl, right that's going to happen.

    Still not sure exactly what the point is, or what I'm going to do, but well ... my outburst and my lack of raid attendance after that required an explanation.

    Sorry.
    - Niko
    "Apologies, by the way, to any genuine idiots who are offended at being associated with religion, that wasn't my intention" - Pat Condell

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Vreden, Germany
    Posts
    1,919

    Default

    I agree.

    Not being an officer anymore since I left The Scorned and joined RL, but still, speaks from the bottom of my heart.
    How Gunhead picks up women: I've got a knife and a penis...and one of them is going inside you.
    OPA GUNHEADSTYLE!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    January 2005
    Location
    Nordfyn, Denmark
    Posts
    5,206

    Default

    I still wub you m8. You are always welcome to come and cry on my shoulder. Hell if I get rich some day I'll even take you to a "Red light District" somewhere so you can get laid (what you seriusly need m8. ).

    I know what you are talking about in your long rambling post and I'll urge the ppl from Bloodscalp (and all others as well) not to flame you at all.

    It takes quite some skill and dedication to mess up a whole guild. I know I've been there myself.

    So my final words to you m8 are: Cheer up and get laid.

    Cheers,

    Iron.
    Irondead - Retired.
    Ironsteel - Retired.
    Ironlight - Retired.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    January 2005
    Posts
    2,736

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikodemus
    So well, Fluf - I guess your post pissed me the hell off mainly because I've been putting so much time, and so much effort into this game and this guild only to fail so tremendously, and that post kinda' ... well I don't think it was meant to, but it hit. And it hurt, big time.
    Indeed, which is why I've apologised several times for that, I never intended to piss off people I respect in the Legion, and this post does explain your somewhat suprising (at the time) post.
    I blame Moose!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    February 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    263

    Default

    .
    Attached Images Attached Images
    I've been talking to dead rabbits and feeding bloody walls. I've done horrifying things with salad tongs. It's really eaten into my social life.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    January 2005
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    2,062

    Default

    That's Iron's job Trouble...plz :|

  7. #7
    Join Date
    January 2005
    Posts
    2,736

    Default

    I dunno derek, I'm sure it'd be much more welcome for alot of people here rather than it coming from Iron
    I blame Moose!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    January 2005
    Location
    Norwich
    Posts
    623

    Default

    Share the Greek Love Derek
    And the Lord spoke, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    January 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    2,751

    Default

    Niko, the road was long and hard, but no matter how much Flames (Rank 5) everyone had to endure, it was you and the officers crew that haven't given up on RL and WoW and if it wasn't for you trying your best to get the show started and inspire people to come to MC and BWL, a lot of people either quit, where stuck on endless xBRS/Strat/Scholo zerging, or joined The Happy Treefriends guild. I really hope you can endure a little more and no matter what people are arguing about, I had some of the best days in WoW working as a team focused on the task with room for a lot of fun with everyone. We all owe Niko a really huge thank you for what he and all the (former) officers have done and are doing right now. For everyone now is a good moment to really start thinking now. Since Internet grew larger everyone has an opinion now and wants it to be heard. Some opiniors are best to be poundered about offline, during a good cup of coffee or whatever it is the youth drink nowadays, and then reconsider the way you voice your opinion.


    All I wanted to say really: Respect for Niko. (and if we all chip in a little we can get you laid )
    Optimists are poorly informed pessimists.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    January 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    2,034

    Default

    Lets hope Huxley is as good and ground breaking as Planetside was.
    So RL can get another mmoFps game to start fresh in.
    I am JojoTheSlayer in most games.
    Old school RL PlanetSide player...

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •