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Fusion
Wednesday, 15th February 2012, 11:38
Recently started playing SC2 again - giving Zerg a try. Bearing in mind I am a total RTS newb, can anyone give me some tips?

Grillkohle
Wednesday, 15th February 2012, 12:47
Bind the backspace function (cycles your screen through hatcheries) to space. Inject. Spread overlords over the map. Inject. Get a macro hatch if you're floating loads of minerals, you'll need the larva. And for god's sake, don't forget to inject.

Kampf
Wednesday, 15th February 2012, 13:15
10 overlord
14 pool
15 gas
16 roach house + queen
17 worker + 2x overlords
then mass roach.
when you feel comfortable you can upgrade your hatch and build some more workers.

when your first 3 roaches pop start attacking (~5 min).
you will be in front of his base well before he has any siegetanks or aircrafts.
your mission is to kill his fancy tech building firstand then kill his army.

i got all the way from bronce to nr1 diamond with this build.
i only have 30-60 apm.

void
Wednesday, 15th February 2012, 16:51
6 pool
-win

what else do you need :D

Kampf
Wednesday, 15th February 2012, 20:05
6 pool
-win

what else do you need :D

that's not true 6 pool is very easy to defend against just with workers.
and especially on maps with multiple spawning positions you are fucked.

Fusion
Wednesday, 15th February 2012, 20:26
Yeah tried it vs medium Terran AI and the SCVs easily took out my Zerglings.

Doc
Thursday, 16th February 2012, 11:07
The roach rush is fine if all you want to do is win.
Even with good control its a bit rock paper scissors.

Krez gave some decent advice, and it will hold up fine til plat, in all likelyhood.
Making a spine at your natural @5 minutes so that it covers your ramp and some of your mineral line is a good idea if you don't know how to scout/what to scout for. It will build in time for many early game pushes.
Also learn to block ramps with queens (narrows ramps only need 1 dead centre) until you have enough units out to defend.
When you start laddering, don't be afraid to ask how to deal with things you have a problem against. Zerg often have to rely on game knowledge in the early game.

When scouting early:
v T and P look for buildings... seriously, knowing they haven't built anything in their own base is important.
Proxy raxx/gateways/cannon rushes hurt :<
send OL's somewhere near opponents base.
You may need to sacrifice it to see what's gong on.

vT
look for whether they take gas. If not, look for a CC. if no CC, expect an aggressive bunker rush of some description.
vP
Forge first opening? take a third and maybe a 4th asap, a lot of pushes here come post 10 minutes.
look at nexus energy, if its building up, early gateway attacks are likely. (they could be faking, or just bad though) Don't over expand, spine up and drone/tech. Unit production here is a matter of practice and style :P (I never got the knack of holding 4gates when I briefly laddered as zerg :D)

vT
When your first lings pop, send to xelnaga towers. Send one to scout the front unless you're planning a timing attack, or you *know* what they're doing.
Try to see what addons are on his building, if he opened gas earlier, and you see a reactor/factory hellions are coming.
You need to defend this push well or you will instantly lose. Vad spent 2 hours killing me with 4 hellions as I learned to defend it, and he still catches me with it (he's much better than you'll face in bronze though :P)
Count his units. If he has a few marines, but you see nothing else, suspect foul play.
Knowing what the terran is doing from what you scout is an arsehole, and its a lot of guess work :P BUT after a while you should see the patterns.

vP
lings to towers, possibly try a ling runby to see his tech.
Count his sentries to see if he's spending his gas that way, a lot of zealots may mean heavy teching but lots of stalkers are too expensive to get much tech out in support.

General tips.

Minimap awareness is key (Vad will giggle at seeing my advice on that, considering how much I miss :<)
Spreading creep is *very* important. Put a tumor down to connect your main and natural quite quickly.
Dont let yourself get supply blocked. I still do this a lot and its a game ender.
Spread your OL's into any dead space around your base. You want full vision and as much advance warning of drops as possible.
Hotkey lings and bling seperately, Dont attack move Blings, right click a target (the maribe ball for terran, for instance) or move command behind your target.
Have a plan in your head before the game starts. Muta/ling is popular, as is infestor/ling. If you just want to focus on mechanics, massing roaches will work fine, as long as you prepare for when they are countered.


Guess I'll stop my assault of words now :D
gl hf.

Kampf
Thursday, 16th February 2012, 12:33
roaches are solid units that can defend of anything without you having to do complicated micro.
of course it it best to go hatch first and build no units at all, but Fusion is not a corean superstar.
and even those corean starcraft superstars mess up this shit all the time.

also Fusion will struggle hard enouth to keep larva inject and his buildorder perfect for months, it's just stupid to give him so much shit to look out for.

I guess you don't play starcraft and just watch the replays, or maybe you are really good and can't even imagine that there are people with 30 apm that struggle wit the bbasics of their buildorders when tey get distracted. Either way you live in a bubble my friend.

I even think that spreading creep is too much for someone who just started, focusing on the larva inject and expanding is hard enouth.
Also scouting is way to expansive for a beginner, since he does not know what to do with te information anyways. Worse he could even get distracted and mess up his build. Further you see all kinds of fucked up shit in the bases of low leage players that make no sence at all. i bet you that 97% of the time theysave nexus energy theyeither don't know what chrono boost is, or they are to stressed with the basics to remember doing it.

Doc
Thursday, 16th February 2012, 13:24
I'm no pro, I have problems with micro, problems with inject, problems with creep spread, problems with map awareness.
BUT I don't play games just to win. I play games so that I can improve.
Everything I said in my post is something I wish somebody would have told me when I started, so I could work on good habits from the start.
Giving somebody a build order and saying GOGO is far worse than giving somebody advice on playing the game correctly.
Note, I told him exactly what to scout for, basics. I could have gone further, but honestly, I'm not that great at it myself. But knowing what tools are available and what information you see can tell you about the opponents plans is *very* reassuring to a new zerg player.
I also said to only scout if he wanted to play straight up. If he wants to play with build order and timing attacks, then no need.
It's called being thorough and offering alternatives.

I apologise for assuming that somebody asking for start help might actually want help GETTING STARTED, not a guide to reach diamond rolling dice and not learning anything.
I cant believe your post... honestly you have sickened me.

Litanie
Thursday, 16th February 2012, 18:20
Most zergs i meet expand really fast to their second base, and then start making units. On most maps, you can defend quite easily your natural expand, and zergs kinda need the extra larvas. Think about a Spine Crawler or two.

Most important things then are : try to know what your opponent is doing (creep, overlord, xel naga, running speedlings), produce drones when you're quiet, units when you need to, and always try to have one more base than your non zergish opponent.

Then you'll progress and learn some timings, yours or terran/protoss so you can defend efficiently.

Taylor
Thursday, 16th February 2012, 19:03
also Fusion will struggle hard enouth to keep larva inject and his buildorder perfect for months, it's just stupid to give him so much shit to look out for.

So your advise to him is to not bother with any of that and to just cheese to win? Winning is absolutely meaningless if all you did was flip a coin and hope you BO win.

Play to improve, not to win, then the wins will start coming in by themselves.

Macro should be your #1 focus while starting out, not cheese.

Fusion: THIS (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=194585-%20improving%20as%20a%20low%20level%20zerg) might be a bit out of date but it should still yield some good info.

If you check the Live Streams on Team Liquid (http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/) as well you can usually find some high level zergs to watch, so you can see how they open up vs various set ups (opponent race, map etc) and what they do early game. You should be able to copy that pretty well as a good basis for any game type.

Kampf
Thursday, 16th February 2012, 20:41
first of all it is not cheese, a cheese is a all in strategy that only works if you completely surpise the enemy.

it's a solid starting strategy for the early game.

and i am not saying he shouldn't get better i just say, that you have to focus on the core mechanics of the game.

just look at howmuch text you put out there how should he remember all this.
i would take him like two weeks of serious learning like he was writing an exam at universaty, to learn all the shit by hard you gave him.

while i just gave him a solid build he can print out, and get by fine from the getgo.
then i said he should focus on a few key things, and just play the game.


Maybe you have some books, that he can read before he starts playing as well.

Doc
Thursday, 16th February 2012, 21:25
I don't assume fusion is a moron. Its because he isn't.
I can be pretty verbose, but I've been giving advice to people for 3 (well, far more than that tbh) years in games, and it seems to have gone well for the most part.

Also, not expanding as zerg = all in. If that roach rush does no damage, you lose.
A 6 pool can be transitioned from, if it does enough damage. That does not make it not a cheese.

Vadam
Thursday, 16th February 2012, 21:25
first of all it is not cheese, a cheese is a all in strategy that only works if you completely surpise the enemy.

it's a solid starting strategy for the early game.



thats the dumbest thing i think anyone has ever said you have no idea what your talking about and should not be giving sc2 advice any 1 base roach aggression is all in

Kampf
Thursday, 16th February 2012, 21:36
It is very unlikely that is the most stupid thing anyone has ever said, when you consider the amount of people living on the planet, and the amount of things said.
But given that you think this means, that it does not matter what i say to you guys.

I won't come back here, so you can consider your self victorious about the evil person who constandly says stuid shit to his old PS buddy.

Grillkohle
Friday, 17th February 2012, 04:02
Okay, first things first: I agree that for a beginner, there are only so many things you can keep an eye on to improve. Pretty much all of those things have been mentioned. That's why I kept my initial post (maybe erroneously) brief. Doc did expand on that, and in my opinon, mostly within beginners' (read: bronze) reach.

However, I do consider the strategy suggested by Kampf to be all-in. Also, by competent players (and that doesn't mean platinum+), if that shit is scouted, you are fucked. Maybe in bronze-silver, people won't understand wtf is going on, but as zerg, you most likely WILL get scouted, and against protoss, forcefields WILL ruin your day, as well as terrans being the dicks that they are. Fuck terrans. As Zerg, unless you get a second hatch between 20-30 supply, I'd consider you all-in.

While there may be some merit following a strategy that most players below a certain skill pattern may not be prepared for, I'd still consider using the same kind of one-base play for Zerg to be all-in cheese, and therefore not benefitial to actual improvement of player skill.

Hopefully this post contains enough content for Doc to agree with to actually be considered contributary to the discussion.

Grillkohle
Friday, 17th February 2012, 04:10
Also, watch this channel. http://www.youtube.com/psystarcraft
He's a cuntwaffle talking random shit about penises and such, but his zerg commentary is quite decent.

Doc
Friday, 17th February 2012, 06:06
Yes Cathus, you can have a cookie.
Agreeing with me isn't a requirement (though it certainly helps) but at least you aren't just trolling in this one :P

Fusion
Friday, 17th February 2012, 18:12
Want to thank everyone for their advice so far.

Kampf sent me this video which has been very informative about Drone production:

-jxdX3514t0

I've realised that I've not been training anywhere near enough workers and my expansions are far too slow to get going.

A quick note about the arguments here: its fine to have differing opinions, but please don't get personal - that becomes counter productive.